I'm Against Seat Belt Laws

"TheSpeedAmbassador" (thespeedambassador) 11/08/2014 at 10:49 • Filed to: None

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I'm an adult. You might be.

As an adult I like to think I have certain rights. For example, the right to choose not to wear a seat belt. You might think this is completely stupid. It might be. But if stupid was illegal we'd have to make most of the world criminals.

Now I'm not advocating that you should not wear a seatbelt. I think they are great things. Race car drivers wear them, so that makes them cool. Sometimes I wear a helmet when I'm driving my car around town, being extra safe. I usually get funny looks.

My point with the seat belt thing is that people are being made to pay fines for something so arbitrary as wearing a seat belt? You're only hurting yourself.

Now I think recognizing that it's most safe to wear a seat belt, we could make it a law that children under 18 (since that's when they are an adult legally) have to wear a seat belt.

But overall I'm sick and tired of laws for every little thing. Next will there be a law on how much !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ? Oh wait, someone did actually try that. Jackbass.

Whatever happened to us trying to educate the populace on "best practices" without making everyone a criminal simply because they should have free choice?

You can find more ramblings from The Speed Ambassador on his site !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Flickr creative commons - crash

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Flickr creative commons - Stig

45bullets > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 10:51

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What I think: Yes, but it's anyones fault if they get seriously injured in a crash because they didn't have to wear a seatbelt, making it heir choice. not specifically directed at you.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 10:56

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You need to consider unintended consequences as well.

If seat belt use wasn't compulsory, then all the crash tests would have to be met with unbelted dummies, which would be damn near impossible.

End result is that we would all be driving marshmallows on wheels with seat belts, limited to 30MPH at most. So we could survive any crash without needing a belt.

Shady Balkan Subject, Drives an Alfa > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 10:57

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One of my biggest issues with people not wearing seats belts is when they crash and injure themselvs, need to go to the hospital, take space and doctors. Even at low speed not wearing seat belt can cause injuries that will need to be treated. Most of the time an ambulance will come, which is -1 ambulance for people that maybe will need it more, -1+ doctors/nurses in the hospitals treating the patient and -1 bed if it need to stay more. And lets not talk about heavy crahses where hard operations are needed. And last the costs if you are not insured and especially if you die. No, there must be mandatory seat belts, in order to minimize the chance that your crash will involve much more manpower than just you and they can be put to better use.

PatBateman > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 10:57

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On behalf of all the other firefighters that have had to stand by the bodies of non-seatbelt wearers after they were ejected from their vehicles and died a horribly painful death in a pool of their own blood on the road, thus making it mandatory (and needed) for we firefighters to go to between one and thirty psychologist sessions to deal with seeing a person die in such a way and not be mentally scarred forever:

NO.

Argent > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 10:58

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Well the thing is, it's not just about you. Those poor EMS workers? They have to scrape your dead body off of the ground after a crash. Cleanup of the crash with a dead person also takes longer, making traffic worse. You're allowed to be as unsafe as you want, until it starts affecting others.

f86sabre > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:02

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I have no issue with this stance with two caveats:

1) You sign up to be an organ donor.

2) Any injuries that you suffer in a car accident that could have been prevented by wearing a seat belt come out of your own pocket. I don't need my insurance rates going up any more.

Fred (FreddsterExprs) > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:03

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This is such an american approach to things. Oh look, someone doesn't want me to kill myself - get away from my freedom!

A) Firefighters and Emergency workers really would appreciate people not being thrown and mixed around in a car

B) You might hurt someone else if you are the only person not wearing a belt in a car as your body flies through the cabin

TheSpeedAmbassador > PatBateman 11/08/2014 at 11:03

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I can see both sides of the argument. As I pointed out, you should wear it. Just shouldn't need a law for it. In my opinion.

TheSpeedAmbassador > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 11/08/2014 at 11:04

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Perhaps that'd make cars safer? As I said, I think we should wear seat belts. But does everything need a law?

Yossarian > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:06

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This is nothing like than soda law. Not wearing a seatbelt has the ability to affect more than just you in an accident, whether that be other passengers in the car, or pedestrians nearby. When you're in a crash without a seatbelt you potentially become another piece of 150+lb projectile with the ability to cause harm to others around you.

Also any law that saves thousands of lives a year is not needless.

Dsscats > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:06

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Prepare for me to be judgemental.

Idiot.

You're not considering any other facts that "im an American, I should be able to make whatever decision I want."

What about all the paramedics who have to scrape your body off the road? What about the person who you crash into who might be carrying a kid who has to see your dead body laying there?

Textured Soy Protein > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:09

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There are 2 huge problems with your logic.

1. Government, as an extension of society, is supposed to protect the lives of members of society. Wearing your seat belt could save your life in a car crash, therefore mandating that members of society wear seat belts is a way for government to preserve people's lives.

2. While technically the only victim of someone not wearing a seat belt is that person if they get in a crash, there is a cost to government in the form of that person's medical bills, government assistance for them and their family if they can't work, etc., which if the government had to account for that many more people not wearing seat belts, they'd have to raise taxes on everyone else.

That you want the freedom to do whatever you feel like, trumps neither of these concerns.

PanchoVilleneuve ST > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:12

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And I think you're a moron.

nippon > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:12

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You need to reinforce law for it BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE FCKIN STUPID. In Europe you will get a pretty big fine if you don't wear it. Not because you are dumb, but also because you put people around you in danger. Now look at US fatality numbers and Europe. Not really comparable but you should get the point.

You can't just go on saying that law shouldn't make you do the right thing because of "you cant tell me what to do", thats some freedom BS right there. After all, you aren't alone on the road.

PatBateman > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:15

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If it wasn't a law, more dumb people wouldn't wear them. If more dumb people don't wear their seatbelts, firefighters/first responders will see more dead bodies like that.

I don't think having a rule for putting a simple strap across your body while in a car is a fascist trait.

Sally O'Broder > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:19

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You overestimate the overall intelligence level of the populace.

We live in a country where texting NOT LOOKING AT THE ROAD and driving is a major, major problem.

TheSpeedAmbassador > PanchoVilleneuve ST 11/08/2014 at 11:22

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Luckily it's a free country so we are all entitled to our own opinions.

m2m, apex detective > PatBateman 11/08/2014 at 11:25

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On the upside, though, making it legal to not wear a belt might slow the dumbing down of mankind to some extent.

PanchoVilleneuve ST > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:37

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My opinion doesn't have the potential to turn my body into a missile that could seriously injure or kill someone.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 11:47

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The problem with that is they already still have to design cars to protect un-belted occupants, which is why nothing has any windows anymore.

Your personal freedom stops the instant it might encroach upon someone else's. And by using our roads and infrastructure you have agreed to a social contract that you will follow the laws pertaining to the use of said transportation network.

You choosing to not wear a seatbelt, or making that action a choice at all, encroaches upon the freedom of everyone else on the road to not have to deal with the consequences of your dumbass not wearing a belt.

Society only works when we all agree to get along. Demanding the 'freedom' to ignore any rules you don't agree with will only make our problems worse. I fucking hate this type of attitude. The anti-vaxers are the absolute worst about this. So either stop using our roads/schools/fire-resuce/police if you don't like our rules, or shut the fuck up and deal with it.

Jayhawk Jake > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 12:09

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Eh, the seatbelt law really isn't to protect idiots who don't where their seatbelts, it's to protect everyone else from idiots who don't wear their seatbelts.

If it takes a fine to teach someone that they really need to buckle up for the good of everyone else, so be it.

Jayhawk Jake > f86sabre 11/08/2014 at 12:11

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The second point is why the law exists I presume.

It's not a law to protect individuals by making them wear a seatbelt, it's a law to protect everything else from the consequences of someone not wearing seatbelts.

PanchoVilleneuve ST > Jayhawk Jake 11/08/2014 at 12:36

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No, it exists because a person thrown from a car can do a lot of damage.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 12:42

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I agree. Especially when you can be an organ donor without a helmet on a motorcycle. It's kind of contradictorily.

Übel > PatBateman 11/08/2014 at 13:13

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That and any other drivers who might be involved in your accident having to deal with that guilt/trauma.

The Transporter > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 13:35

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A long time ago people forgot that laws, in and of themselves, can't control human behavior. People are going to do whatever the hell they want to do, no matter how many laws are on the books. The only thing that laws can do is establish where a society's social norms and statute limitations lie and what will be the punishment if someone is caught going outside the limits. If the majority of people see benefit in obeying the laws, then it is merely a happy side effect.

AUDACIA > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 13:49

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There is no such law in the US?

Well, I read Iacocca's autobiography, and he points out that a seat belt law is vital. That was in 1987ish.

Meanwhile in Germany, politicians ars discussing a helmet law for bikers (those on bicycles)...

MFEJAL grey because who knows... > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 14:20

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your seat belt will keep you in place in case of a unexpected change of direction of your vehicle, like hitting a bump, being hit by another vehicle, or hitting something. In the case of (properly) wearing a seat belt, your hands, torso, head and feet will remain in the right position to regain control of your vehicle. But if you are not wearing a seat belt, you are most likely to end up hurt, or hurting others. You need to experience it in real life, like going to a driving school.

All the point for not wearing a seatbelt are proven invalid.

yamahog > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 11/08/2014 at 15:00

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Actually, only 2 states have zero helmet laws. The rest either require use for everyone, or have age and/or insurance restrictions.

Either way, no helmet or no seatbelt, the dumbass violating the law is more likely to end up a vegetable and costing the state money so I think it's perfectly fair to be fined for violation of said laws.

Baeromez > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 15:11

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Here's the deal. Let's say you're a young guy driving along with no seat belt on, just wistfully thinking of what it will be like when you meet a nice girl and settle down and start a family. "How great that will be," you think. "After all, I'm so lonely with my parents gone, and no family to speak of whatsoever." For some reason you suddenly remember that you no longer have health insurance, because you were on your parents plan. Meanwhile you drift into the oncoming lane and plow into the minivan that was travelling the opposite direction. You manage to survive, but wake up days later to find you've accumulated a massive hospital bill. Even worse, your injuries have left you a quadriplegic, with no way to work and earn money. That's okay though, because Uncle Sam has got your back. He'll just reach into the pockets of all the working taxpayers and get you all set up with a nice disability check each month. Oh and your hospital bills? Don't worry about the millions of dollars you owe, and the millions you'll need for future surgeries and procedures. The hospital will just hike up its rates and spread the cost out over the people who can afford to pay them. Since you were young, you'll probably go on living like this for decades. You hear back from the accident investigators about the crash. Seems you were flung from your vehicle and landed on your neck. Turns out the family in the minivan are all fine. "Whew," you breath a sigh of relief, "good thing they were wearing their seat belts."

PardonMyFlemish16 > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 15:20

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You're not just hurting yourself by not wearing a seat belt though. When you die or get seriously injured from a mild fender bender you jack up MY insurance rates. Plus you still have the physical right to drive your car without a seat belt on- it's not like you can't drive your car without putting it on and logistically that wouldn't work to mandate. But having the right to do something doesn't mean you should be free'd from its consequences.

Living in a society means accepting living by its rules... some of those rules being rules you might not like. That's life. You should be thankful to live in a country where your biggest gripe is something so inanely frivolous. Just put on your seat belt, you are not a renegade.

duurtlang > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 11/08/2014 at 15:35

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The problem with that is they already still have to design cars to protect un-belted occupants

Only in the US. This is one of the reasons why it's expensive to alter a car for the US market. It also means the less compromised European market airbags are more effective for those of us who do chose to wear their seatbelts.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > duurtlang 11/08/2014 at 15:47

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True. Which is why I would love it if they just agreed the Euro standards are safe enough and we could just import cars without modification.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > yamahog 11/08/2014 at 15:53

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My point is, people have every right to choose if they die or not. Let the stupid be filtered out.

yamahog > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 11/08/2014 at 16:05

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Actually, driving is a privilege, not a right, and by having a driver's license you have given implied consent to follow the rules associated with that privilege. The fact that someone can choose to break a law to their own detriment (and, once again, cost to others) does not somehow negate the need for the law nor does it invalidate collecting fines from those who violate it.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > yamahog 11/08/2014 at 16:23

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I said right to die, not drive. People are going to make the choice whether it's legal or not, I think that's proven whenever you turn on the news. It never fails that someone has died because they weren't wearing a seat-belt. People should stop trying to fix stupid. Stupid shouldn't be coddled, because stupid ends up reproducing and creates lots of stupid(more than average, actually).

yamahog > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 11/08/2014 at 16:58

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I didn't misread. I think you are misunderstood in your assertion about "fixing stupid," though. It's not about squashing YER FREEDUMS, it's about enforcing the rules of the road. Does your alleged right to die (subject to more debate than seatbelt laws in its own right) allow you to run stoplights, speed, crash into others, etc? No, because once again, driving is a privilege, not a right, and on public roads you must follow the law for not just your own safety but that of others. That is the cost of living in a society and enjoying public roads paid for with tax dollars. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, not wearing seat belt comes at a cost not just to you, but to other drivers (when you get flung onto the road, causing a crash), emergency response (when they have to peel your carcass off the road), and possibly the state (when you end up being a vegetable on the taxpayer's dime). And as for the social darwinism thing:

See: the Flynn Effect.

Now, if someone here was arguing against traffic tickets as a form of regressive taxation, that'd be more interesting.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > yamahog 11/08/2014 at 17:06

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Okay, there is a huge, HUGE difference between running stop signs and not wearing your seatbelt. Not wearing your seatbelt isn't killing anybody else, but you. If you can't see that big difference, you need help. When you are ejected from your car, you have, in fact, already hit something. Any wreck can cause other wrecks, that happens all the time. I know plenty of first responders, and they would not wear there seatbelt before they got on a bike. There is usually less of a mess.

nic > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/08/2014 at 22:04

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I maybe dreaming this.

I remember a gentleman who had in his drive a number of cars built from Austin 8 or Morris 10 underpinnings, they had bodywork made from tent poles and laminated kitchen foil, canvas deck chairs as seats and a large sharp kitchen knife as the steering wheel boss. I seem to recollect that this was the safest car one could drive on the grounds that only a suicidal maniac would even try!

KillerBee > PatBateman 11/08/2014 at 22:39

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If you're dumb enough to forego wearing a seat belt, you're probably dumb enough to ignore a law requiring you to do so.

Tohru > PanchoVilleneuve ST 11/09/2014 at 01:03

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You make driving without a seatbelt sound metal as fuck .

pip bip - choose Corrour > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/09/2014 at 05:09

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great parking asshat!

fawgcutter > Jayhawk Jake 11/09/2014 at 07:29

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I joke that it's a law brought to you by the insurance companies: prior to enacting the law, they had to cover you even if you weren't wearing a seatbelt, now they can refuse to cover any injuries if you were in an accident if you weren't wearing a seatbelt because you're operating or riding in a vehicle illegally. As for minors not wearing their seatbelts, the police will still get you for child endangerment. Nanny state :(.

Maxaxle > KillerBee 11/09/2014 at 11:21

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While I agree with your point, lemme just note that you CAN be pulled over for not wearing a seatbelt, and if you're not wearing a seatbelt, then can be the loose thread that a police officer could pull, unravelling your recent driving history and possibly getting your license revoked.

TacMedic > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/09/2014 at 11:26

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I'll tell you a story. I'm an advanced care paramedic. The call was for a 2-car MVA on a rural road.

We got there, and it was a 50mph road where 2 cars collided head-on. First one was an older Honda Civic with 2 young adults inside, both had seatbelts, minor injuries.

Second one was a brand new Subaru WRX. 4 teens in it. They all had their seatbelts except for the left rear passenger, a 17 year old boy. With the force of impact, he was projected onto the front passenger, a 15 year old girl. He hit her so hard that her brain started to hemorrage.

Then, when the car fell in the ditch, he went to hit the other rear passenger, a 14 year old boy, and broke 4 of his ribs. One of them punctured his lung, the other one his stomach.

The guy without the seatbelt died of an internal hemorrage when his aorta partially separated from his heart on impact with the front seat. The 15 year old girl died in 35 minutes after a horrible, panicking headache when her brain was squished inside the hole at the base of her cranium. The 14 year old boy died in horrible pain of a massive abdominal infection 2 days after the crash.

This was a very survivable accident. They would very likely all be alive if that guy had buckled up.

Wear your fucking seatbelt.

MysteriousPete > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/09/2014 at 23:21

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Well my friend......try keeping your lunch down when you walk up on a guy who did not wear his seat belt and was partially ejected through the drivers side window when the vehicle tipped on it's side, slid fifty yards and ground most of his head off. Believe me you will support selt belt laws.

Y'all can be as Tea Party and Libertarian as you like and believe the government is ruining our life, etc......90% of the people will not wear their belt unless made to do so.

Maxima Speed > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/10/2014 at 00:09

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Agree 100%, glad im not the only one sick of it. High 5 bro!

Maxima Speed > TacMedic 11/10/2014 at 00:16

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that emt stuff isnt for everybody. i have a friend in elderly care the things shes had to deal with were bad enough. im not squeamish but some positions (paramedic) i wouldnt voluntarily put myself in.

Maxima Speed > Maxima Speed 11/10/2014 at 00:19

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maybe i spoke to soon. after reading some replies i realized i had made a snap statement. i may have to rethink my policy.

6uldv8 > Yossarian 11/10/2014 at 09:47

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I couldn't agree more. For some reason it never occurs to people that their body could become a pin-balling meat sack of death to the other passengers if not strapped in. Some friends of mine used to always forgo seat belts while religiously strapping their son into his child seat. When I mentioned what their adult bodies could do to the kid in a rollover they both started buckling up.

CB > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/10/2014 at 23:25

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See, paternalism from the government, in many cases, is a good thing. Would you also like the government to not put up barriers, since people are rational enough to drive and know the risks associated with it? How about removing crash testing? If people knew how to drive, then we wouldn't have to worry about accidents.

The answer is no. People are fucking dumbasses, and these kinds of laws are there to protect us from ourselves. It's not perfect all the time, but it seems to be working so far.

TheSpeedAmbassador > MysteriousPete 11/20/2014 at 00:50

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I appreciate all emt, fire fighters, police in doing their job to help us. But it's your job. Laws aren't made to stop every single person from dying. And saying " think of me in this one specific situation" shows your narrow world view. Emts and others who respond are paid to do that and trained to. They know that that's what they will be exposed to when they start the job.

TheSpeedAmbassador > TacMedic 11/20/2014 at 00:54

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I agree. His parents should have taught him to do the right thing and wear his seat belt. Or his friends should have insisted he wear it. Any number on people could have told him to wear it. But the government is not one of them

TheSpeedAmbassador > Baeromez 11/20/2014 at 00:57

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yes. That sure is a story. I'm not sure what point you were driving towards?

Baeromez > TheSpeedAmbassador 11/20/2014 at 17:41

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Personal safety isn't just about you. It's about all the other people your poor decisions can affect. From the emergency workers who get a little more traumatized every time they see a dead body, to the taxpayers paying out disability claims. I wish we didn't need seat belt laws either, but there are just too many morons out there willing to put themselves in harms way and risk becoming a burden on society.